Please, protect people from smokers!

[Yoyo]

I come from a country where public transport ranks from average to terrible: France. Switzerland's public transport system is one of the best I know, but what a shameful smoking policy in the train stations !

It's become impossible for me to stand inside the train stations (even more in enclosed areas, where smoking should be banned) when waiting for my train, because of so many smokers which are not even in infraction ! Visiting Zurich's HB (one of the best railway stations I know, except for the big smoking issues) almost rimes with having an asthma crisis !

Please, Swiss authorities: do something to protect 80% of the population! Your public transport system is so successful, don't let the French beat you as regards smoking policies ! Don't let people (and especially children) suffer from this deadly poison, because such a useless pollution - and the big health troubles it causes directly - is just going to prevent me (and many others) from taking the train in your beautiful country anymore... which would be such a shame.
Solutions do exist: ban cigarette in all enclosed areas, create (closed) smoking zones as some airports have, advertise against smoking , ... you guys are so respectful of the law compared to other European countries, no doubt that if you do something then smokers will comply.

Yoël.

[c_ralu]

I saw SBB moved the smoking stations again at the middle of the gate. I guess all this "we protect each other's health" during Corona was just an empty saying. Welcome back to passive smoking:).

[ormilno]

Hi there,
My point is - Any country, regardless of income level, can implement effective smoke-free legislation. Only a total ban on smoking in public places, including all indoor workplaces, protects people from the harms of second-hand smoke, helps smokers quit and reduces youth smoking.

[DavideC]

Hi @Yoyo

SBB takes the issue of protecting passengers against passive smoking very seriously. We are sorry to hear of your annoyance at other people smoking in the station.

SBB prohibits smoking in areas where passengers or staff would be severely affected by the tobacco smoke. This is why smoking is banned in all the publicly accessible enclosed spaces and passageways of our stations and across the board in our shopping arcades and underground stations. Those of our customers who do smoke would find a smoking ban in places where air can circulate freely (e.g. on concourses with high ceilings or on platforms) hard to understand.

Although there are currently no plans for a blanket smoking ban in stations, SBB is keen to identify potential solutions in this regard. We are constantly looking into this issue and have, for instance, already studied the model of special smoking areas on platforms. Given the space requirements and the concentrated build-up of smoke, such areas could probably only be set up at the end of the platforms where few people tend to congregate. This would be likely to annoy smokers, especially since the ends of many platforms are exposed to the elements. In addition, as these zones would not be enclosed spaces and the surrounding area would therefore not be completely shielded from the smoke, this model would not help to solve the problem fully. If we are presented with different findings or identify an ideal solution, we will take appropriate action.

SBB has put additional measures in place since the smoking ban was introduced on its trains and in large parts of its stations. Signage has been significantly improved, additional ashtrays have been installed and our staff have been reminded to ensure that passengers do not smoke in a designated no-smoking area.

SBB Real Estate also conducted market research into smoking at stations last year and found that two-thirds of the 1,000 people surveyed (both smokers and non-smokers) are satisfied with the current situation. As things stand, therefore, we will not be making any changes to our current solution – having zones in our stations where smoking is prohibited and zones where it is permitted – which is currently largely accepted, practical and in line with legal requirements.

We hope that this information will give you a clearer understanding of the circumstances and wish you all the best.

Regards
@DavideC

[nzsnyc]

Dear SBB,

I recently moved to Zürich from abroad. I always thought of Switzerland as a progressive country, however I am shocked at the lack of protection of non-smokers against second-hand smoke. The only real solution is to ban smoking at all public transport areas, unconditionally. Such regulations have been implemented successfully in multiple countries around the world. We all know it can be done.

People who want to smoke should feel free to do so outside of these areas. The fact that they need to "endure the elements" or suffer any other inconvenience is a direct consequence of their own choice. 

The effects of smoking and second-hand smoke have been scientifically established for decades. This is not a controversial topic. This is not a topic up for debate. We all know what the only ethical solution is. Any solutions that fall short of a full ban are there to protect the tobacco lobby, not your customers.

Please do the right thing, be a responsible company.

[Johana]

Dear SBB,

Please protect us from smokers, I have been living in Switzerland for 3 years, and it is really frustrating to have to endure cigarette smoke every time I wait at a bus station, it really affects me a lot, even not being able to be under the roof with my baby during a day of Rain just because a smoker sat in the middle of the bench, or having to walk away because for some mothers it is normal to smoke sitting at the bus station in front of their babies in their strollers.

A signage is not enough, 20 minutes ago a woman smoked under a "no smoking here" signage at Embrach Rorbas station. Could you enable a platform to file complaints from people who don't follow the rules?

[SandraI]

Hi @Johana 

Smoking regulations are of major concern for the SBB and are a recurring topic which we see reflected in our customer enquiries – continuous feedback and queries attest to this. Smoking in itself and the subsequent left-over debris substantially compromises the quality of stay and the cleanliness of stations.

Personally, I think it will take time before this changeover will be fully accepted and until old habits change.  

The fact is however, that we legally we do not have the right to issue fines for transgressions. The law for the “protection against passive smoking” is only applicable in completely closed rooms. This does not apply to platforms. We are obliged to comply to legal requirements. A tightening up of this law can only be made by the Confederation and the Cantons. Therefore we depend on the cooperation of the smokers that they keep to the rules out of respect and tolerance towards their fellow passengers.

Kind regards
SandraI

[HightowerSchuk]

@SandraI 

I get it. You dont have the legal right for fines, and frankly nor the capacity to enforce fines at all the stations to make a difference. Except the statement that you depend on smokers to keep to the rules out of respect and tolerance is almost completely non-existent in my mind. They as a whole, simply have no consideration for other people.

Would like to see a list of measures that planned to be taken. There needs to be better change going forward. Something a whole lot more visible. For example, an idea might be to have a very visible line of no smoking within about 3m of a platform edge next to the track. Assuming they actually respect it, this would reduce the number of smokers who need that last big inhale and puff just as they are boarding at the doors, ready for everyone else to inhale and the litter that ensues of cig butts all over the tracks and platforms. Something to be brain stormed perhaps.

Interesting article below that points to the 2010 smoking ban for indoor spaces. Restaurants in particular had this fear they would lose business and instead the opposite happened. You just may attract more people to use trains if they dont have to deal with the smoke that surrounds the area, not to mention the thumbs down you receive from tourists who do not expect such low standards of smoking restrictions.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/secondhand-smoke_where-switzerland-stands-on-passive-smoking/45729488

[Bowthy]

So what happened to the smoking ban?

Are the no smoking signs painted on the floor (where almost no one will see them) it?

Pretty poor attempt, if so. Hopefully there's more coming (publicity, signs people see, enforcement of rules on platforms etc).

Anyone know?

[Johana]

Unfortunately it is not useful to put a banner when underneath they put a special trash can to throw away cigarettes, they continue to smoke anywhere because they do not receive any sanction, at least I have never seen someone who does not respect the rules confronted for doing so.

[Yoyo]

Dear DavideC,

I thank your for your answer.  Nevertheless, though very polite, this message deeply saddens me as it confirms in a somewhat official way - and as I was fearing when writing my original question - the total absence of any public will to fight correctly this public poison, imposed to the others by a minority. You seem to be calling them pudically "those of our customers who smoke" in the same way, for instance, a restaurant would say "those of our customers who eat meat", or "those of our customers drink alcohol", versus vegetarians or non-drinkers. As if smoking and non-smoking were simply two different lifestyles that should coexist peacefully in the public space, like different kinds of customers in a restaurant would do...

You seem to be forgetting that passive smoking itself kills more than 600,000 peoples, including 165,000 children, each year (this is half the number of people killed on the roads worldwide ! see http://www.who.int/gho/phe/secondhand_smoke/en/, http://www.bbc.com/news/health-11844169, https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/nov/26/passive-smoking-deaths-who-report) and is proved to be one of the main causes for lung cancers and for the increasing breathing diseases (such as asthma, pneumonia, ...) that hurt mostly younger people (https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1005579-overview).

Train stations are in my opinion "public areas" by excellence, in which many people (including families, pregnant women, young children, people with breathing disabilities, etc.) have to cohabit in rather tiny spaces, and in which the density of people MEANS by essence absence of any sufficiently ventilated areas.  You seem to be extremely careful towards smokers, as if your logic was that any further restrictions regarding smoking would make your company lose plenty of customers.
As if smokers were simply unable to comply to new rules that, apart from helping them reducing their addiction, would make them even more aware of the harm they can cause to others.  Please, don't tell me that someone cannot wait to go outside the station before lighting his cigarette ...  People are just people: they comply to the rules, in absence of which they just don't.

You also seem to be convinced that a vast majority of your customers is satisfied with the current situation regarding smoking in stations. This is highly misleading, as these messages (https://sbbcffffs-community.sbb.ch/t5/On-the-go-with-SBB/Smoking/m-p/1210), these ones (https://sbbcffffs-community.sbb.ch/t5/On-the-go-with-SBB/Smoking/m-p/7945) as well as these ones (https://sbbcffffs-community.sbb.ch/t5/Unterwegs-mit-der-SBB/Rauchfreie-Bahnh%C3%B6fe/td-p/384: If I could read German better I would surely find many others), addressed directly to your company, show that it's obviously not the case !!

About the other points of your message, I'll just answer briefly:
 
• No, the ground floor of Zurich HB has no proper ventilation. First, It is covered by a ceiling. Second, as far as I know, and even in totally opened areas, cigarette smoke doesn't move vertically at all, and remains at human-breathing altitude for a long time (several minutes). The ceiling may be as high as you want, given the density of smokers, the ground floor of Zurich HBB is nothing different as an enclosed room filed with smoke.Reaching SBB's customer main desk situated at this floor is just another painful experience for me. But don't worry, I'll let you know as soon as I manage to walk for 2 minutes to without breathing at all !

• The Basel train station is even worse. Yes, there are some enclosed parts in which smoking is prohibited. But most public areas (including fast-foods, cafés, escalators, waiting areas, platforms), in which there is no proper ventilation, are widely open to smokers. That's a pity because, as a normal customer, I would enjoy sitting there having luch and drinking coffee, as I can normally do (like for instance in the -1 level of Zurich HB) in a breathable place. So following your economic logic: might your company lose a couple of customers (which I highly doubt) with new rules, you would get it back instantly with the many non-smokers (including me) that would just spend more time and money in your stations, instead of running through retaining their breathes !

- "additional ashtrays have been installed": do you seriously think that it changes something to the problem of passive-smoking ? I don't know about you but, if I were a smoker, seeing brand new ashtrays installed by the SBB would just confort me in thinking that I'm allowed to smoke. And in case I would have forgotten for 5 minutes that I needed this cigarette, seeing these big ashtrays would instantly remind me !

- One last: those of your customers who are highly irritated by cigarette smoke know very-well the notion of "third hand smoke", which is the smoke releaed by clothes, hair, etc. of smokers right after they smoked, and which also reacts with other components of the air to produce new ultrafine particles. So here is my question: do you want your kid to sit for two hours in a train next to someone that has just smoked on the platform ?

• Non costly solutions do exist: in Germany for instance, a small portion of each platform is designated to smokers. This requires no further constructions, but only a yellow 5 by 5 square painted on the ground! From what I saw, smokers do comply quite well. And I would add that, as a very kind person which is highly irritated by cigarette smoke, I wouldn't see any problem in moving to some area of the platform in which I'll be sure not to encounter any smokers, should this area be situated at the very end of the platform. Should it rain or not. I'm not a Gremlin nor a cat, I'm not afraid by water ! But smokers are, according to you, so we should preserve them from getting wet ...

Other solutions: The SBB could also decide to keep-on authorizing e-cigarettes in all the aforementioned areas. This solution, as far as I know, would remain totally harmless to non-smokers and would surely satisfy "those of your customers" who cannot wait a few more minutes for their hourly dose of nicotine.
Finally, in big stations such as Zurich, Basel, etc. the SBB could build some (totally) enclosed smoking areas in the most crowded places, such as the ground floor and on the main platforms. Many airports do have this solution, even the IKEA store of Zurich does have this !

I'm pretty sure that Zurich HB has more customer than any IKEA store in the world... Would it be too costly for the SBB ? In Switzerland, really ?

In some way your answer- which I take as the official position of the SBB and, by extension, of the Swiss authorities - is no big surprise given the fact that cigarette is the only one product I know whose price in Switzerland is less or equal than in France. And that cigarettes are freely sold everywhere, such as in pawn shops on university campuses...

Please have in mind that this message is by no-way meant to purely criticize a public company nor a country which are great by many aspects (and I don't know any country which does enough to protect people from passive-smoking, by the way). But things have to be said over and over in order to protect people's health as much as we're pretending we do.

Best regards,

Yoel.

[Yoyo]

As a complement of what I said - especially about the Basel station - here is a recent article about the (perhaps?) future smoking ban in stations https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/9082507-le-debat-sur-l-interdiction-de-fumer-en-exterieur-est-lance-e...

In which we can read the following (among others):

La Suisse est à la traîne, estime Martin Röösli, chef d'unité à l'Institut suisse de santé publique. Le chercheur a mesuré des taux alarmants de particules fines émanant des cigarettes devant et dans la gare de Bâle. "Un vendredi après-midi, nous avons mesuré ici des taux entre 100 et 200 microgrammes par m3", raconte-t-il. "C'est beaucoup plus que les valeurs limites autorisées dans l'air extérieur!" 

(Switzerland is way behind, says Martin Röösli, head of unity at the Swiss Institute of Public Health. The researcher measured alarmingly high levels of fine particles coming from cigarettes in front of and in Basel station. "One Friday afternoon, we measured here between 100 and 200 micrograms per cubic meter," he says. "It's much more than the limit values allowed in outdoor air!")

No comment...

[psw88]

Dear Yoel and SBB,

I too, share your frustrations about second hand smoke and the prevalence of smoking at bus stops and on the trains' platforms while waiting for trains.

We were very excited to be visiting beautiful Switzerland but had no idea of the ridiculous amount of smokers EVERYWHERE as long as it was open-air.

Given the high ticket prices SBB charges, surely it would be easy for them to enforce NO SMOKING on platforms and build smoking rooms for smokers who wish to suffocate to death by their own smoke. I was taken aback by how backwards Switzerland seemed with their smoking laws given that other countries like China have already banned smoking on all public transport and there are specially designed smoking rooms to cater to these smokers.

Switzerland is a beautiful country but the amount of smokers and no laws to ban public smoking really left a dent on our trip. Incredible views but inconsiderate smokers would be puffing off, spoiling the experience for others and polluting the air. The water is clean in Switzerland but fresh air is really hard to come by.

Hopefully SBB is taking steps to rectify this and hopefully the complete ban comes sooner than 2019. 

Cheers,

SW from Australia

[Stadler]

Agree full heartedly! The like button does not want to let me give you a thumbs up.

[Bowthy]

Totally agree with the need to ban smoking on train platforms, tram stops and bus stops. For example, the number of smokers at Stadelhofen station render the air unfit for humans (or any life). I've stopped using this station as a result and use HB where possible where, thankfully, smoking is not permitted.

Arguing against a smoking ban is arguing against science. There's a proven link between second hand smoke and lung cancer. The arguments I've seen from SBB are like those from the 70s in the UK.

Is it responsible for a company such as SBB to ignore the science? What will it take to change the policy? A class action law suit brought by commuters with lung cancer against the SBB?

[HightowerSchuk]

I have to come on here again to applaud at least this move to do this smoking ban trial at Stadelhofen. Step in the right direction. But still boggles my mind of why its a trial.  I come on here again because today again waiting for the tram, it was impossible to wait standing without someone blowing disgusting smoke in my face. And given that smoke rises, I get it even worse since I am over 2m tall. Not only that, but these smokers have absolutly zero consideration for other people. Taking their last big big inhale just before stepping in the tram and exhaling smoke right at the door!   I dont know if SBB reads this AND takes it seriously, just because its open platform with high ceiling, or open air means nothing.  There is so many smokers everywhere.   Please designate zones so they can have their right to smoke, but if thats their wish, then concentrate the area of their smoke so they can breath in all the toxins to their hearts content.   Even providing a roof over their head for the rain. This way their beloved smoke can linger since thats what they like.   But for pete sake do the same for non smokers who actually value their health. A standing area free of smoke and at least 5-6m away from the other lethal zone. 

I mentioned it before but in Canada the public entrances and transportation areas are free of smoke  completely. There is no smoking allowed within 6m (or is it 9) from public entrances.  Here you have to walk thru the cloud of smoke at nearly all entrances. Disgusting! 

Please have some regard for your citizens and take the lead for other countries in Europe. We know that Switzerland has very high standards in regard to certain manufactured products, punctuality, cleanliness, and health care system ( although the latter doesnt seem to care about smoking. When in hospital, all the nurses and doctors were outside smoking. Go figure. Excellent example)  What better way for SBB to take the lead.   However this goes beyond SBB. This should be done at the federal government level in taking pro action on having an anti smoking campaign. Cant imagine the health care costs because of smoking. Maybe they are not the cause of death but they certainly contribute to it.  Look at all the cig butts thrown everywhere which disintegrate and leach its remains into the water.  (In fact just look down at the rail lines. Its littered with cig butts. 

One more thing. If SBB does read this, could you at least reply with a definition of how this Stadelhofen "trial" would be deemed successful?

Thank you for your understanding

Kind Regards

[SandraI]

Dear HightowerSchuk

With the current regulation it is already prohibited to smoke in different areas of the train stations. In recent times, we have received a lot of negative feedback on this subject. For this reason, we are now testing the concepts of smoke-free railway stations and train stations with smoking zones.

At the inside of the train station of Zurich Stadelhofen it is currently not allowed to smoke. Ashtrays are still available at the outside of the station. During the trial period no fines will be imposed in the newly created smoke-free zones. After a test period of several months we will take a final decision.

Kind regards
SandraI

[HightowerSchuk]

"At the inside of the train station of Zurich Stadelhofen it is currently not allowed to smoke. Ashtrays are still available at the outside of the station. During the trial period no fines will be imposed in the newly created smoke-free zones. After a test period of several months we will take a final decision."

With all due respect Sandral, that doesnt help non smokers. Inside the station down below where no smoking is allowed. Yes that great as it should be. But are we supposed to wait down there for the train that comes in 1min so we dont have to breath toxic air and then suddenly rush up the escalator when we think the train is should be coming?    My observation is the vast majority of smokers do not care where they blow smoke or throw their ciggarette butts or have any regard to other peoples health. In fact some seem to even enjoy seeing others who are annoyed by the smoke.  I hope its not a trial just to appease the non smokers to say that SBB tried it but actually hopes it failed , in order to save money implenting the plan to put non smoking zones everywhere.  In the intrest of health and safety it should just be done period.  No one is taking away smokers rights to light up, just dont do it where it must standing for transportation wait mixes with those who respect thier health. 

[Bowthy]

Testing the concept of clean air at stations? Really?

Surely the concept of clean air has been tested enough in other locations (offices, trains, aeroplanes, people's lungs etc) for SBB to decide that it's a very good idea?

With ash trays available and no fines, what exactly will change during the no smoking trial?

[psw88]

Exactly - I can't see much change and deterrent for the smokers given that there is no fines during the trial - what should change then?

I am just so thankful that I do not live in a country like Switzerland where there is so much public smoking and second-hand smoke. Australia has one of the world's most stringent laws on smoking and we are lucky to not have to endure a lot of smoke (to the point of suffocaiton) in our daily commute.

I find it ironic that SBB would rather spend so much money on hiring workers to manually collect cigarette butts from the train tracks rather than banning smoking outright. I also find it highly ironic that the World Health Organisation's headquarters is in Geneva, Switzerland - a country so backwards in health that smoking at public transport is still NOT banned outright.

God bless you all.

[c_ralu]

I feel sad for people working in the Zurich Hb every day and are beimg exposed to second hand smoking. People still dont understand the dangers of second hand smoking and it makes me wonder why. Is it just to make angry customers that have an addiction? Sbb can provide flyers for addiction. I saw flyers about hambling addiction in Montecarlo's biggest casino. We are so used to our life being easy that having it easy comes at the cost of people's health. This is not a light topic and I would treat it accordingly.